Dr. Billina Shaw (00:00)
behavioral elements here that are causing

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (00:03)
Mm.

Dr. Billina Shaw (00:04)
people to not follow through. And

Dr. Billina Shaw (00:08)
I could use the skills and talents and gifts that I have as a psychiatrist to help people navigate those so that they could have the change and the impact in their own financial lives and live a life of financial wellness.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (00:22)
That's brilliant. Yeah, that's such a powerful place to start, you know, because you think that there's safety with a government job. I mean you're a triple board certified psychiatrist and even you, you weren't

Dr. Billina Shaw (00:33)
Right, good government job.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (00:34)
safe. Yeah, yeah. So that really sets the stage for the bigger picture that I want to explore next. So

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (00:41)
Mental health and money isn't a connection that most people think about, yet almost everyone has experienced it. I know that I certainly have. How do our emotions, our beliefs, our life experiences shape the way we earn, the way we spend, the way we save and even build wealth?

Dr. Billina Shaw (01:00)
Yeah, that's a great question. So, you know, I I I well first of all, everyone has we all have ment mental health to manage and we all need money in some way, shape or form to make it through our lives. So this is a topic that affects all of us in some in some way. And money is the top stressor for so many people and causes such a risk on to to people's mental health. So as a public health professional I strongly believe that

Dr. Billina Shaw (01:30)
helping people navigate the mental health elements of money is a a public health intervention because it's really mental health prevention and promotion promotion and prevention. But then also we we also know that mental health in itself

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (01:44)
That's what

Dr. Billina Shaw (01:46)
has a risk of impacting one's ability to earn, save, spend, etc.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (01:52)
The

Dr. Billina Shaw (01:52)
so okay, so spend save exists. Let me let's pause and pick it back up. Yes, so mental mental health and money, you know that so it goes both ways. So your money can affect your mental health and your mental health can affect how you earn

Dr. Billina Shaw (02:08)
earn, save, spend, and how how you how how you relate to money. And I like to think about our relationship with money coming from three main buckets or three concentric circles. So the first big circle is history, thinking about how history

Dr. Billina Shaw (02:29)
impacts us. And and as black Americans, I like to use the example of slavery.

Dr. Billina Shaw (02:37)
So if you think about being a slave, you have first of all no you you you are a commodity. So, you know, as a as an enslaved person, our relationship and our historical relationship with money has already been strained when we were literally the commodity. Right. And then you also think about how we relate to work and how work relates

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (02:55)
Hmm.

Dr. Billina Shaw (03:01)
to money.

Dr. Billina Shaw (03:02)
that working in a f in a job where we don't have purpose or we're not feeling fulfilled, working for others, there's this sense that that's the only way to make money

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (03:06)
you know, have heard this or not or others. There's the sense of that

Dr. Billina Shaw (03:13)
and that it's a sense of our own validation when we know that that's really

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (03:17)
Okay.

Dr. Billina Shaw (03:18)
was the way that we o we literally stayed alive was through work, right? So just that's one big element of it is is is the history. You can even think about the Freedman Savings Bank that

Dr. Billina Shaw (03:32)
it ended up getting you know falling and and failing and that was the bank where in s freed enslaved African Americans were supposedly putting their money as a s as a safe haven and then the bank failed. So now when you think about why people might leave money under their mattresses, you think about you know

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (03:47)
So now when they've got one who might leave money for their actresses.

Dr. Billina Shaw (03:55)
history, things like that. So there's this cultural element that often comes from history.

Dr. Billina Shaw (04:01)
about how we relate to money. The next big bucket or concentric circle that I like to think of is h as our households. So the way

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (04:05)
Yeah, big fucking time to sort of think that is possible.

Dr. Billina Shaw (04:10)
that we were raised. Our money stories are formed, you know, b often before we're before born because of what I said, but also it's really shaped in w in our in our early childhood

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (04:19)
Which is and put in the market.

Dr. Billina Shaw (04:22)
memories around how people relate to money around us and whether or not there's a excess or is there

Dr. Billina Shaw (04:31)
just enough or we're not making not meeting ends, making ends meet. yeah, so there's all of these things that can happen when we're children about how

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (04:39)
Yeah, I think all these things that can happen are culturally.

Dr. Billina Shaw (04:42)
we we see money flowing around us and and whether or not we have what we want and need as children. and how we s and we how we see the adults around us behaving with money. Where there are pink slips coming in the mail, I guess

Dr. Billina Shaw (04:56)
These people get used to get mail with bills, right? You know you know, you know, people, you know, the phone calls coming with, you know, the bill collectors. Like there's these things and I mean when you had a house phone, right? But there's these elements of of how people might relate to money. So then if someone doesn't check their mail, well why? You know, you can start to understand things differently. And then the last thing is I like to say is our story, your story. And that last story,

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (05:13)
Sorry about 13 and maybe last things I like to say is our scoring, we're scoring

Dr. Billina Shaw (05:21)
you know, that that piece really is how

Dr. Billina Shaw (05:25)
we have shaped or money has shaped us

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (05:28)
Yeah.

Dr. Billina Shaw (05:29)
in our adult lives. So that would include from, you

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (05:33)
Yeah, I think.

Dr. Billina Shaw (05:35)
know, the student loans that so many of us take out. You know, I mean Dr. Evans, I don't if you, you, you had loans, you know, I came out with a quarter million of them, right? So, you know, the student loans that we take out and these financial decisions that are made when we're our brains aren't even fully developed. it also can be

Dr. Billina Shaw (05:54)
You know, the the things that, you know, people experiment with credit cards and sometimes getting a credit card debt and and things that nature make money mistakes. but also the woulda coulda shoulda's and things that and and you know, the investments that went wrong and and things that nature, that those those those

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (06:07)
Think I need to do this.

Dr. Billina Shaw (06:09)
ta challenges can be impactful. But then also whether or not we're able to create a career

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (06:14)
Right.

Dr. Billina Shaw (06:15)
or a financial pathway that creates financial security and helps helps us financially thrive. that's also part of it.

Dr. Billina Shaw (06:23)
But at the end of the day, a lot of those other pieces and those other circles can shape how

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (06:26)
Okay.

Dr. Billina Shaw (06:28)
we frame our relationship with money no matter how much or little we make.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (06:33)
Wow, wow, that's that was such a complete way to look at it. And I love the way you put it in three different buckets and it kinda makes it clear and understandable.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (06:43)
You know, I can just say that, you know, you mentioned the the loans and the things and then failures, all those things, so many of those things that you mentioned have impacted me personally. I've I've done the businesses, I've done the investments that went up and down, I've done I have the loans, you know, so it it can be it can be almost like nerve-wracking when you start to l know that you have a family and you have people to take care of you and depend on you.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (07:10)
But you know, you have to somehow manage this financial world. You know, speaking of that, as physicians, as healthcare workers, nurses, etc., people always expect that, once you get there, wow, you've made it. And you know, again, people are not thinking about the debt that you had.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (07:31)
to take on to get there. Or the delay in earning potential. I literally had friends of mine who as I was going to my third and fourth year of of medical school, they were on Wall Street making two fifty three and then cleared their

Dr. Billina Shaw (07:48)
No, it stinks.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (07:49)
first million and I was going into debt. Yeah. Yeah, I was negative and negative and they're positive and positive. You know, so I

Dr. Billina Shaw (07:53)
And you're going negative. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I stopped calculating my network for so long. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (08:00)
I just it's

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (08:01)
These finan are all financial pressures that people don't see. If you're gonna tell the general public, what would you wish they would understand about even you know high-income earners or something, physicians, etc., what what would you tell them about that?

Dr. Billina Shaw (08:18)
So the first thing is that I don't think people understand the the the amount of debt that we go into to go into these fields. And so when you know, especially sometimes now people don't understand the the roles that we play in the training that we've had and and the and also you know the healthcare system has created challenges and a divide between the relationship between the the physician, provider, patient, clinician.

Dr. Billina Shaw (08:48)
therapist, whoever, you know, there there's a there's a divide often between with insurance and administration and things. So a lot of times that can we can get caught up in that that negative feelings, those negative feelings and feel like we're agents of that

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (09:02)
Mm.

Dr. Billina Shaw (09:03)
or pharma, et cetera. but that's not, you know, we weren't trained to do that and we didn't go into the field to do that. We we went in for that direct relationship.

Dr. Billina Shaw (09:13)
and that's even an example of how money interferes in in this relationship and can have a an an interpersonal it can impact

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (09:13)
that's gonna take high interferes and then this relationship can have a lot of it and

Dr. Billina Shaw (09:19)
the interpersonal dynamic, you know, when when you know that the healthcare is so expensive in this country. But when but but you know, the what people who have gone through, especially

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (09:24)
So it's fine sounds great.

Dr. Billina Shaw (09:30)
medical school, you know, we come out with so much debt. we you know, work hard

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (09:37)
Okay.

Dr. Billina Shaw (09:38)
in in medical school and learn a lot, take a lot of tests.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (09:41)
Mm-hmm. we

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (09:42)
are.

Dr. Billina Shaw (09:42)
to get to where we are.

Dr. Billina Shaw (09:44)
And then on top of that, we end up having also problems and difficulties with you know, having having not only debt, but but thinking about our own worth and value

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (09:57)
That's the thing about it.

Dr. Billina Shaw (09:59)
as providers. So when you think about

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (10:01)
Wow.

Dr. Billina Shaw (10:03)
medical school and residency, you know, after finishing medical school, I've gone through four years of college, four years in medical school, and then I'm a new

Dr. Billina Shaw (10:12)
brandly minted doctor that can't really work anywhere, right? Except for the hospital, except for a residency. And I remember I made forty two thousand six hundred and forty dollars.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (10:18)
Right. And I was paying forty two thousand six hundred

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (10:22)
and forty dollars.

Dr. Billina Shaw (10:24)
Coming out of medical school, out of all those you that those years of education. And duty hours said that we could

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (10:28)
That's that's a good resolution.

Dr. Billina Shaw (10:31)
work up to 80 hours a week.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (10:34)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Billina Shaw (10:35)
And so then

Dr. Billina Shaw (10:37)
when you think about what impact that has on our psyche as and the imp and the value of the services that we provide, because now we're a resident working

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (10:48)
Yeah.

Dr. Billina Shaw (10:48)
on floors, we have we still are getting supervision, but we have skills,

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (10:51)
Okay.

Dr. Billina Shaw (10:52)
we have gifts, we have talents that we are using that we've learned, but we are getting paid essentially pennies for the knowledge and that we have. And how does that impact

Dr. Billina Shaw (11:04)
how we move and and go on when we negotiate contracts and we think about negotiating contracts with insurance companies or employers or or the relationship between us and the people that we serve if

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (11:18)
Got

Dr. Billina Shaw (11:19)
we're doing a direct primary care model. Like how the like how we have to think about

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (11:23)
Okay,

Dr. Billina Shaw (11:24)
how that impacts our self worth. And and

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (11:27)
Wow.

Dr. Billina Shaw (11:29)
all of that together, I don't think people understand what we've gone through.

Dr. Billina Shaw (11:33)
for that. and also just just the especially, you know, people that were front lines during COVID, etc., there's a lot of trauma and sacrifice that people go through

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (11:44)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Billina Shaw (11:45)
for to for the sake of purpose and the sake of care.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (11:47)
So but take a congress.

Dr. Billina Shaw (11:49)
And have literally risked lives. Or you know, I've been you know psychiatrists. I've done high, you know, high intensity, high acuity work and done seclusions and restraints and, you know, physically and been at risk. And I don't think people

Dr. Billina Shaw (12:03)
understand and value the risk and that we are doing it really f

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (12:08)
Yeah, maybe.

Dr. Billina Shaw (12:08)
not for the amount of money that we've for f especially for a lot of our professions, especially

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (12:11)
Thank you.

Dr. Billina Shaw (12:13)
the primary care, et cetera, that that they're not for the amount of money that that I I think the service should should be valued at.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (12:21)
Wow. Wow. You know, you said so many things that impacted me. I remember so I'm a little older than you. I started probably started residency a little earlier. And my first residency salary was twenty nine thousand five hundred dollars. Wow. And as a as a surgical resident, I I'm a surgeon for for those who don't know. And

Dr. Billina Shaw (12:36)
Ooh, ooh. Yeah. Yeah. It's a surgical reserve. Okay. Okay.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (12:45)
and then I got married.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (12:48)
shortly after, so it was both of us and she was in school butt working. But my point is that, you know, you start building a family

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (12:58)
And I I think the time I by the time I had my first child, I think I made 32,000. I was like, woo, I'm in money now. And the funny thing is, I would fly back home, because I was in Chicago training. I'd fly back home to Florida to see some of my friends. And you know, one of my close friends would we'd go out to dinner, he'd take me out to to lunch or dinner, and we'd be laugh, he'd laugh at me, kind of, you know, jokingly. We always joke at each other. He said, So you're making 32 now? He's I made 300.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (13:28)
this year when you you know so

Dr. Billina Shaw (13:30)
Yeah.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (13:32)
and and we're both twenty nine you know you know so it's it it it

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (13:37)
Definitely impacts you from a psychological standpoint. It's it's so interesting because the other aspect is that you know, because you're starting into the business quote unquote salary world so late, you have not had the experience, as you just mentioned, in negotiating contracts and and setting your value up so that when I came out and I had my first contract, and I was I was shocked that they wanted to pay me a lot more money, hundreds.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (14:07)
Of thousands of dollars. Like I didn't know if that was too low, too high. I had no reference part point. So it really does affect, you know, and and so we're on that trend. And part of that thing is like, as you mentioned a little bit about COVID and working in a stressful environment, we always talk about the burnout that healthcare providers have, even nurses get these types of burnout. But how does the stress, the financial

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (14:37)
stress play into that burnout? What what do you think with the the the mental health with all that you know the the the the well-being that how does it all connect?

Dr. Billina Shaw (14:48)
Yeah, yeah. And and goes slightly back to the other question as well that 'cause it feeds into this is that we also start investing late, right? We start saving for retirement late. you know, we l we're living off of our loans oftentimes through through medical school and then just into residency with those salaries just making it. So saving and investing is difficult. And then when people see that, yeah, you went from forty, fifty

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (15:12)
is difficult. And then like people see

Dr. Billina Shaw (15:16)
thousand dollars to three hundred or one hundred something, you know, one to three hundred, whatever it is, you know, depending on specialty, that then then you have this this the swing of you know wanting to spend because it's almost like this pent up pent up demand pent up demand. Yes. Yes. And so you

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (15:16)
that yeah it went from $20, $50,000 to $300 money, $3300 and $20. then we have this display of wanting to spend it because most I guess now Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yeah.

Dr. Billina Shaw (15:38)
know our financial wellness and our financial well being when you think about that like it it doesn't set us up for mak having good

Dr. Billina Shaw (15:46)
great financial habits because you've

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (15:48)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Billina Shaw (15:48)
had such a a challenge for so long and you know not being able to to have the steady income and and until until you're you know we're s these cities that we're living in for residency they're often high cost cities as well so we're just you know

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (16:01)
We have to see all like iconic.

Dr. Billina Shaw (16:05)
struggling. So we're we're so we're not really setting ourselves up for for fight great financial habits and

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (16:10)
Okay.

Dr. Billina Shaw (16:10)
we're not often investing as early as we could. And that

Dr. Billina Shaw (16:15)
leads it's leads us to having more difficulty in exiting. So then we feel financially

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (16:20)
Yeah.

Dr. Billina Shaw (16:21)
trapped because we don't have the assets to be able to to say that this is no longer serving me or I want to do work in a place

Dr. Billina Shaw (16:32)
or in a way that is more conducive to my mental health. And then when you go through that and you have

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (16:35)
It's important to financial health.

Dr. Billina Shaw (16:40)
all of all of that c compounding things

Dr. Billina Shaw (16:44)
Then money becomes a stressor because we we've trained all of our careers, oftentimes, right? Or you know, a lot of us go straight through. we've trained for a very specific thing, and then we realize that that thing is very difficult for us and stressful,

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (16:53)
And then playing something very difficult for us.

Dr. Billina Shaw (17:03)
and our identity is tied up into it. And that's a lot of the work I do, is also around identity. Our identity is tied up into it, and then

Dr. Billina Shaw (17:11)
We our money and our ability to sustain ourselves and our families are also tied up into it. And then it creates this compound of stress that is related not

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (17:19)
Mm-hmm. And then it created.

Dr. Billina Shaw (17:23)
just to the the burnout, but also this feeling of trapped, trapped by the system and not being able to get out, but then also trapped internally because our identity

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (17:31)
System and now the output.

Dr. Billina Shaw (17:34)
is tied into a career that we have worked our whole lives.

Dr. Billina Shaw (17:39)
to to to to to to participate in.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (17:40)
I mean it's just too about

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (17:41)
this for this. Wow. I mean you're just ringing bells. Yeah, because you're you're trapped there. You feel like, okay, I want to make a shift, but if you make the shift, will everybody that I support be okay? You know,

Dr. Billina Shaw (17:56)
Mm.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (17:56)
so you and it's like if you feel burnout. I've heard per people say that, and I've experienced that stuff. Just of even changing jobs, just saying, I want to do something different, I want to go a different place, and you're like, wow.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (18:09)
How will that affect myself? Yes, but you know, my children, all the my fell even, you know, parents if you're supporting them sometimes. So yeah, it can be really a stressful thing. So if we switch back or look back on at the general public, right? And looking at anxiety, depression,

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (18:34)
and money and how that shows up. You kind of talked a little bit about that already, but you know, of I I've seen people, I've even experienced myself where you avoid looking at you mentioned looking at your mail, avoid looking into your bank account. You're like, okay, yeah, money will be there and you just kind of spend without knowing or so forth.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (18:57)
Yeah, can you bring us home or a little bit c circle it back to the general public and how people in general f get into financial paralysis and the anxiety and emotion and depression around that?

Dr. Billina Shaw (19:10)
Yeah, sure. I think you know there there's there's multiple elements of it, but when we think about the symptoms of depression and anxiety, and really all mental health system symptoms, we want to tr we there we want to find an escape. And sometimes,

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (19:28)
Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Billina Shaw (19:30)
you know, we we we we talk about emotional eating and we also call we have we call it retail therapy. Right?

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (19:37)
Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Billina Shaw (19:40)
And so sometimes, you know, we will go get that dopamine hit and fixed to get out of our anxiety or depression, especially depression,

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (19:51)
Yeah.

Dr. Billina Shaw (19:52)
that we'll we'll we'll go and and take on something else when it's an internal challenge that is that can't be solved

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (19:58)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Billina Shaw (20:00)
by swiping. It's the and you know, it's yeah, yeah.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (20:04)
I I think somewhere we we feel yeah, we feel like we deserve it, right?

Dr. Billina Shaw (20:10)
Yeah. Yeah. And and I think and I think that and and I and I and I I think also sometimes traditional financial advice does focus on being so lean, getting out of debt at all costs that you know, yesterday and that debt is evil and you are evil if you have debt and especially if you're already depressed, well now you have all this extra things to provide guilt and shame.

Dr. Billina Shaw (20:36)
the you know, on

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (20:36)
Yeah.

Dr. Billina Shaw (20:37)
top of this because the financial traditional financial advice is is oftentimes just focused on do better. Don't take the lot you know, less lattes

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (20:44)
Mm. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Billina Shaw (20:46)
than you would have figured out your life, right? Like you know, like you know Exactly, exactly. If we w if we if there were no snow Starbucks Yeah, yes, that then

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (20:49)
You'd be rich if you didn't have the lattes, yes. Five dollars a day.

Dr. Billina Shaw (20:57)
we would save or say all we you know, the whole economy would save no, no, like there there's more than that. But there's so much guilt and shame.

Dr. Billina Shaw (21:04)
And then that and when we know that, especially shame, that the more shame we have and the more looking back we do, that that causes significant problems with our ability to move forward. When you think about if you were driving, you still keep your eyes in the rearview mirror the whole time, well, what do happens? You crash. You know, and so you

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (21:26)
Absolutely.

Dr. Billina Shaw (21:27)
you think about the same with money is that if you are

Dr. Billina Shaw (21:32)
you know, continuing to look back and so focused on the past and not from a place of growth and not place from a place of gratitude for what you know our money was able to do for us, even if it wasn't always the best use of those funds at that moment. We look at we don't look at it from a place of growth and gr and and gratitude, then we can run into the challenge of feeling stuck and we can feel so stuck that we're unable to move forward.

Dr. Billina Shaw (21:59)
And that can cause cause us to have more and more negative emotions. and then and the same and there's something very similar, very similar with anxiety.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (22:05)
Mm and it's something we're exactly working.

Dr. Billina Shaw (22:09)
so you know, and I and I think also, you know, it's it's okay to do things to to that that are that that serve us and are and are good and and that make us feel good. I think that money is is a tool and it can be helpful.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (22:14)
it's possible to change the two videos and some of us in our goods feel like money is the change.

Dr. Billina Shaw (22:26)
to to spend on ourselves sometimes and and it doesn't have to be this all or nothing space because I mean yes we we do deserve it sometimes it's just it but it's just making sure that we're understanding the pr how we are prioritizing our funds and what purpose it's serving.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (22:41)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Billina Shaw (22:43)
So if the brunch with the girls

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (22:46)
Right.

Dr. Billina Shaw (22:47)
is at the highest end restaurant all the time and it's costing a lot of money well

Dr. Billina Shaw (22:55)
possibly can we think about

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (22:56)
Awesome.

Dr. Billina Shaw (22:57)
this the purpose of this was connection and what else can I do to serve to to c to connect, right? But then maybe every now and then it's nice to have have a brunch with the girls too, you know, and and and it's not it's not evil as long as you're thinking about what's its purpose and am I willing to make this financial sacrifice and am I doing it from a mindful

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (23:15)
And then my work to be exponential sacrifice.

Dr. Billina Shaw (23:18)
and intentional space.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (23:20)
I love that. I love that. So allows us to sort of sit with and be comfortable with taking care of ourselves or prioritizing our own well being just a little bit. Yeah. Within reason. Yeah.

Dr. Billina Shaw (23:33)
Mm-hmm. Or in and and a little

Dr. Billina Shaw (23:35)
bit or a l or or a lot depending on the time and the need. Right? You know, and I I think

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (23:39)
Okay.

Dr. Billina Shaw (23:39)
and it but depends on the time and the need and what our resources are and how we prioritize those resources. but but you know, I mean, they they do depreciate when they come off the lot. It's you know, but if it if if

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (23:46)
So it's okay to buy the new car.

Dr. Billina Shaw (23:55)
but if the new car is if you got all if you got the cash and that's and you're and you have got no other better financial plans for it, then

Dr. Billina Shaw (24:02)
You know, I mean it it is a depreciating asset. you know, but on the other hand, you know, I was talking to other people, it of some folks too. If you're a single woman and you want the peace of mind and that that that you have a brand new car with a brand new warranty and

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (24:17)
Working car.

Dr. Billina Shaw (24:19)
you don't and you and you don't and you drive cars into the ground, you don't plan on trading it in like y like the latest iPhone, like it's it's gonna be like i it it might serve you to get a new car.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (24:26)
It is curvy, but it's curve you together.

Dr. Billina Shaw (24:31)
you know, as opposed to to or you need a car right away and you didn't have time to shop extensively and things. Like it's it you know, it but I think it the the key thing is that all these situ these s these

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (24:40)
Yeah, that's okay.

Dr. Billina Shaw (24:43)
decisions are situational and personal. And they're about meeting one's individual needs. I mean, you know, cars are depreciating assets and and you know, if you're trying to build wealth aggressively then maybe you want a a a model year old or older or so.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (24:45)
Mm-hmm. I mean that's us and and then they can get a lot here when people but you know the other thing we could

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (24:59)
find with the access to the same time.

Dr. Billina Shaw (25:00)
But, you know, on the other hand, if you can find a way to write it off on your taxes at the same time, then maybe then maybe you do get something that that that that can you can bunish appreciate to you know, so it just depends on

Dr. Billina Shaw (25:11)
the person and and and it's the role of the of the money at the time.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (25:16)
Okay. I like the balance that you're striking there. You know, we've kind of zoomed in for a little bit and I'd like us to kind of zoom out a little bit. because you know, money just doesn't affect us individually. It plays out inside of relationships too, whether it's a marriage or a divorce or

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (25:35)
There could be an earning imbalance, right? Between partners. There is one that's carrying the financial weight of the relationship or the family. And when you have people depending on you, that can be closely linked to symptoms of depression, anxiety. And I've known some people to have panic attacks, right? What would you say to someone who is carrying that weight right now? Someone who is rebuilding financially.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (26:03)
after a major relationship change.

Dr. Billina Shaw (26:08)
So I I would say that recovery is possible and that you know, once again don't don't get stuck in looking in the past because, you know, financial mistakes sometimes can be boundary issues or they can be a marriage, right? I mean, you know, they th you know, f that that can be and the and one might f significantly regret that. I d definitely know people that were doing well and then, you know, get into financial mismatch or whatnot and then end up in

Dr. Billina Shaw (26:37)
hund and hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt based on on that or la and our major losses, financial losses. And so I think that the key thing is the that

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (26:47)
Thank you.

Dr. Billina Shaw (26:48)
that looking back i is is not is not healthy. It's good it's healthy to look back to learn from it, but not to get stuck there. That recovery is possible and that money is a tool. And you know, I I I know a lot of times too, especially when people think about debt

Dr. Billina Shaw (27:07)
that that it's just just this all or nothing is good or bad. but at some point think about it just as a way to leverage your to your your next step if you're still in into your freedom. You know, think about the value. If you were you wanted out of that marriage, then yes, that fine the you know, the the think about it holistically. Would you rather be in a place where you're psychologically unwell or physically unwell if you're physically abuse

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (27:22)
courage. And yes, that might be a but just rather place where you're technologically unwell or exactly unwell.

Dr. Billina Shaw (27:34)
or you know, just

Dr. Billina Shaw (27:35)
knowing that you're not growing with that person and that that that wasn't the the the relationship with

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (27:39)
Yeah.

Dr. Billina Shaw (27:40)
for you. Like that's the you know, it's not just about the money, it's about the whole picture of life. And money is a tool to it and a resource to get you to your next step. And it and it might have been also a tool or resource to get you out of the past steps. And, you know, you can i think think about that and be

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (27:44)
Well I think about kids or white. And money is what you is in a race force to get you to NASA. And then I and then also race for Nascad. And you can use the thing.

Dr. Billina Shaw (28:01)
thankful for that and not focus

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (28:03)
Yeah.

Dr. Billina Shaw (28:04)
on on

Dr. Billina Shaw (28:05)
you know what you don't you don't have now. By focus on growth and the in the recovery it's possible.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (28:12)
I think a lot of people needed to hear that. Thank you so much for giving our listeners hope. You know, because oftentimes we're looking back and we're looking back with such, you know, you know, that feeling of loss. my gosh, I did this. I it and that's the way we look at money, right? my gosh, I made this mistake. I feel that shame and that guilt around that decision. But I feel like what you've done just now is given people hope. It's saying, yes, you learn from the past, learn from the mistakes, grow.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (28:42)
understand what it takes to match with someone that is you know probably more financially you know attuned to you whatever

Dr. Billina Shaw (28:48)
Okay.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (28:49)
it is or may or may not the either way is that you take the lessons and you go forward and you move forward with it. Thank you so much. So I would like to kind of switch lens a little bit now to gender because as a woman for generations, right, we've been encouraged to nurture, to give, to support others, right? Men.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (29:11)
Well, you know, wealth building again has often been seen as something that men pursue, right? Why do you think that tr society has traditionally celebrated wealth building more in men than in women? And how has that shaped the way women think about money, financial success, and even our own potential to build wealth?

Dr. Billina Shaw (29:37)
Well, you know, in this country, was it the seventies? I I have to get my history right when it's the seventies when women could first start getting credit on their own. Let's i it's it's not been that long. you know,

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (29:49)
Yeah.

Dr. Billina Shaw (29:49)
th i there is an intentional intentional patriarchy that you know was intentionally oppressed women to make it so that we were not able to be financially free and we weren't able to build wealth.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (30:00)
There we go.

Dr. Billina Shaw (30:01)
And so, you know, the first thing is that

Dr. Billina Shaw (30:05)
You know, we talk about history and culture and all these pieces is that w we weren't w the system that in the in this country wasn't designed for us to build wealth on our own.

Dr. Billina Shaw (30:17)
in and and it's ju and it's really just now shifting in the last in in a

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (30:19)
Just now shifting.

Dr. Billina Shaw (30:21)
not in not not so long. in the most recent years. So that's the the first part. The second part is that there is this this narrative that women were spenders, we

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (30:30)
This doesn't we're gonna put your spectrum.

Dr. Billina Shaw (30:32)
like the red bottoms, we like this, we like that, then we just aren't s and we don't know how to manage money and that there's just this this narrative. And I think it becomes almost a self fulfilling prophecy for some people.

Dr. Billina Shaw (30:44)
because of of what is said about about us, which is

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (30:45)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Billina Shaw (30:48)
not necessarily true. I there's so many women that are doing so well financially and and and things of that nature.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (30:53)
Yeah.

Dr. Billina Shaw (30:56)
and and then the and the other piece is that

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (30:58)
Yeah, other pieces.

Dr. Billina Shaw (31:00)
you know we as women are nurturers by nature it's just it's something that's inerrant in us and and we do want to give

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (31:06)
I just didn't tell that he had to hear my message. And you have

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (31:11)
to get and

Dr. Billina Shaw (31:12)
And one hundred percent

Dr. Billina Shaw (31:13)
of the women that I have worked with have had some type of issue with financial boundaries.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (31:23)
Wow, can you say more? Yeah.

Dr. Billina Shaw (31:23)
some type of issue. So

Dr. Billina Shaw (31:26)
so I, you know, when you think about loans, loans to others, that that we become the emergency fund for whoever and right? You know,

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (31:42)
Yeah.

Dr. Billina Shaw (31:43)
you know, we are are, you know, hap happening to be support. it can also be the time.

Dr. Billina Shaw (31:50)
that we we provide to people that is unpaid to support them when that could be doing things that are either

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (31:54)
Yes, it's not that.

Dr. Billina Shaw (31:57)
for work or for business that it could be paid or or restoring ourselves. we also often are working outside the home and have a disproportionate share of inside the home work as well, which impacts our well

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (32:09)
And have a digital inside of the water.

Dr. Billina Shaw (32:14)
being as well as earning potential because you're not

Dr. Billina Shaw (32:17)
it's harder to be as attuned to other activities when you're doing two jobs. and then when we think about donations, gifts, et cetera, that it just pulls on our heartstrings and we're just we're out there saving the world w one penny at a time that we don't that that could be going towards an investment here sometimes, right? And so I I think that if we our our budget leaks aren't lattes, our budget lake leaks are

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (32:20)
and then some dedications are just like you would want towards the interest option, right?

Dr. Billina Shaw (32:43)
really these financial boundaries for most of us.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (32:45)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Billina Shaw (32:47)
and I I I I know that personally I learned that during residency and I loaned a significant amount of money to family and I am glad I learned that in residency. I had to

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (33:00)
See.

Dr. Billina Shaw (33:01)
pay it back. It was on a zero percent interest credit card and I was moving around between zero percent credit cards until I realized that I wasn't getting the money back. And so I moonlighted and worked evenings and weekends until

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (33:10)
that would be project. So I moved from it and forgetting things that we get

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (33:15)
and total I basically know where if you get that well during my presidency last tening years.

Dr. Billina Shaw (33:15)
I basically doubled my salary and paid it back. But I did that during my residency and not during and and so when I started my attending years, I learned before I had

Dr. Billina Shaw (33:27)
more income to lose. but you know, I think that that that's the other piece that you started with is

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (33:30)
Right. Right. I think that that got

Dr. Billina Shaw (33:35)
that that nurturing component that of of us that can often lead us down the path of

Dr. Billina Shaw (33:42)
having financial leaks in the form of of poor financial boundaries. And and it and we've we're so worried about risk of the relationship and we're so worried about the the challenges with you know, what is this person gonna say about me? Can I look in them in the eye, et cetera, when we can't necessarily look ourselves in the eye when we know that 'cause

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (34:01)
We continue to know that our health items.

Dr. Billina Shaw (34:02)
we our financial goals and if you know are

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (34:06)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Billina Shaw (34:07)
are not being met.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (34:08)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Wow. Wow. You know, I can remember my mother having some of those same issues and and because I my dad went away when I was early before I became a teenager, he went to work for an another to the Jamaican government.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (34:32)
you know, he wasn't always around like in the house. And so to see my mother and her financial leaks as you're lending people money and so forth and bringing people in, it actually, you know, sort of shaped the way I started viewing money and what I should do. It's interesting because, you know, our childhood relationships around money kinda shape our views and and

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (35:01)
you know, whether you grew up with scarcity or you grew up with, you know, tight resources, you had family members who are very miserable, or like you said, I I didn't even realize that, but the lack of boundaries, being you know, giving away what you have already saved to to save others and not realizing or knowing that you may never get that back. You know, if you were to talk to someone now, like how do you how do you perceive

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (35:31)
growing up or childhood influences affect your financial well being.

Dr. Billina Shaw (35:38)
Yeah, I mean th it's it's very significant and some oftentimes people either repr repeat, like you mentioned, you might repeat their their financial past, or they have that s pendulum swing the other way and they say, I'm not gonna be like that at all and that can lead to either a a you know, scarcity mindset can can go different different ways. You know, if you're especially if we're talking

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (36:04)
Okay.

Dr. Billina Shaw (36:04)
about someone who doesn't he grew up with not a lot.

Dr. Billina Shaw (36:07)
It can be that you can have a healthy relationship with money and work that through. But oftentimes either people are overspending because they say that well there's money will never be there or I won't have more and it's it's you know the resource is is always gonna go, so why why try? And there's this this helplessness and hopelessness. or also hoarding, that people can just

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (36:33)
Mm.

Dr. Billina Shaw (36:34)
put it away, put it away.

Dr. Billina Shaw (36:36)
I know people that have six figures worth of

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (36:38)
That last six years worth of

Dr. Billina Shaw (36:41)
cash that's not invested. You know, 'cause it's just, you know, it's it's just it's feels safe, it feels comfortable when we know that that much cash is really just

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (36:43)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Billina Shaw (36:51)
a loss when we think about inflation. So, you know, there's there's scarcity

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (36:54)
Wow.

Dr. Billina Shaw (36:59)
that can go either way when we think about our childhood.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (37:04)
How do you break out of that? Like what do we need someone like yourself?

Dr. Billina Shaw (37:08)
Yes, yes.

Dr. Billina Shaw (37:09)
So so I love working with people around this. Yes. And because the first thing is understanding the pattern. the second thing is then realizing what that pattern means to them. and and then the next thing is is, you know, oftentimes we also need to do something physical and some type of somatic element of it too, because our nervous systems get deregulated. So thinking about how are we going to be

Dr. Billina Shaw (37:36)
Either are we doing deep breathing, are we doing tapping? I actually talk about money with my massage therapist, because he's an investor.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (37:44)
Wow.

Dr. Billina Shaw (37:44)
and so I do think also that that that you know, we have our time where we chat and then I fall asleep. but you know, like

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (37:52)
Yeah.

Dr. Billina Shaw (37:53)
there's there's the but also I feel like there there's a association of like this nervous system healing that happens in in that space too. And so there's a somatic

Dr. Billina Shaw (38:05)
healing element too, but I think we have to also figure out how to n regulate our nervous systems around money

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (38:10)
I think technology are top of the regular.

Dr. Billina Shaw (38:12)
and I identify those patterns as well. And and also understanding money as a tool, as a resource, and as

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (38:18)
Understanding money has taken as a resource.

Dr. Billina Shaw (38:24)
something that's that's in an inval and and understanding its true value. I I won't go into my whole water analogy

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (38:29)
I would say it's true. I'm I'm not quite too

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (38:34)
much about the

Dr. Billina Shaw (38:35)
today. That's a

Dr. Billina Shaw (38:36)
another twenty minutes. But but you know, water like but but it's it's it's it's vital to us like water. And

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (38:41)
But it's it's it's it's like old to us like longer.

Dr. Billina Shaw (38:45)
if we really would t fully understand it being a tool and not necessarily this thing that's put on a pedestal that either people are evil because they have it, because you know also the cultural and historical horror historical pieces can be related to the church.

Dr. Billina Shaw (39:03)
And people saying that, you know, money

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (39:04)
All right.

Dr. Billina Shaw (39:05)
is the root of all evil when we that's not even what the Bible says. So there can be, you know, all of these other things that are in our heads about about these negative associations with money that we have to identify and talk

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (39:17)
Is that a body?

Dr. Billina Shaw (39:19)
through, discuss, but also do some somatic work and action taking to shift our to to shift those those experiences. Because

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (39:26)
shift our I think it's shift the OTS great

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (39:30)
sense I think because object

Dr. Billina Shaw (39:31)
As long as you talk through it but we don't do anything different, our brain says doesn't doesn't notice

Dr. Billina Shaw (39:36)
that there's there notice the full change.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (39:38)
Wow, wow. And then I'm so glad you brought up religion and and faith and it's like, you know, I grew up with hearing those messages and and you and in the back of your mind you're thinking, Okay, well, you know, sh how how should I not pursue wealth? But then, you know, the same Bible talks about all the people that every one of that I can remember were wealthy. Very wealthy. Mm-hmm. So it's so, you know, we talk about

Dr. Billina Shaw (40:04)
Jesus came to have life

Dr. Billina Shaw (40:06)
and life more abundantly. He didn't say just to be making it. Yeah. Water turned into wine. He

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (40:07)
Exactly, exactly. You talk about all the kings and the this and the Abraham Yeah, no.

Dr. Billina Shaw (40:14)
says if we're gonna celebrate, we're gonna celebrate with wine. Yeah. Yeah.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (40:14)
Exactly. So so it it sounded like an internal conflict, you know. So

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (40:20)
I was just wondering like for those people for those clients that you have that are that have that conflict, how can someone like pursue wealth without feeling they're compromising their values? Because do you have to unlearn all this stuff? Do you do you whip out the Bible and say, hey, you know these these these all were rich? Look at Job. Exactly. The whole story of Job's without a rich man. Yeah.

Dr. Billina Shaw (40:39)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Billina Shaw (40:43)
I mean, I think yeah, so I I think part of it is re examining, and and you know, this part of the what what I do is founded in s in cognitive behavioral therapy as well. Right. But but really re examining the beliefs and understanding where they are and replacing them with new beliefs. And that new belief may be focused on, well, where did this interpretation come from and why and is it real?

Dr. Billina Shaw (41:05)
you know, and and and is it in a in an is is that your interpretation or something you inherited and can you shift it to something that a new one for yourself?

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (41:16)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Billina Shaw (41:17)
so so yes, there is definitely an element where we

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (41:19)
Yeah, you're definitely not.

Dr. Billina Shaw (41:21)
we do some cognitive behavioral like work and and really thinking about replacing the thoughts and and getting to the core beliefs. because even when you think about, you know, a lot of this is around core beliefs.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (41:27)
thinking about playing the ones and you get into work these thinking about people else

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (41:34)
around work

Dr. Billina Shaw (41:34)
and

Dr. Billina Shaw (41:35)
which is a part of the cognitive behavioral therapy tra you know the framework. And and you know, when we think about like the boundaries core belief that we talked about before, well, when we are giving, giving, giving, it's easy to say stop, but it's harder to just stop than just to do it, like, you know, like the Nike commercial than stop. But what does that giving mean? Well, the giving is so if if if my giving my value

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (41:49)
But it's hard to just stop than it doesn't do like either my ranking form. Right. My giving my values.

Dr. Billina Shaw (42:05)
could be tied up into my giving. That I am I am valuable to them or to or I feel feel f

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (42:08)
I am I am valuable.

Dr. Billina Shaw (42:11)
I feel that I have more value when I can give as opposed to be. And that is one one piece or that the relationship you know i is is so so important but then on the other hand if someone can't respect you and your boundaries how

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (42:28)
Okay, yeah.

Dr. Billina Shaw (42:29)
how good is that relationship anyway? And

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (42:32)
Yeah.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (42:32)
That's true.

Dr. Billina Shaw (42:33)
you know, so it's it's it's really getting at these core beliefs of

Dr. Billina Shaw (42:37)
you know, what's the worst that would happen if this if this shifted

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (42:40)
Yeah.

Dr. Billina Shaw (42:41)
and why do you believe that and where are contrary or alternative

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (42:46)
Okay.

Dr. Billina Shaw (42:47)
beliefs that you can replace that with. And so yes, going back through the Bible and saying, Well Jesus said to have life life more abundantly. I mean, you know, I was

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (42:51)
Yes, go back to the Bible and say, Well, if Jesus had more than

Dr. Billina Shaw (42:56)
I was working with a a a a friend of mine

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (42:59)
Yeah.

Dr. Billina Shaw (42:59)
who had a retreat and I spoke at a retreat.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (43:02)
I thought

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (43:02)
they were free. And

Dr. Billina Shaw (43:02)
And you know, in the draft

Dr. Billina Shaw (43:04)
of her retreat agenda it said the anointing of enough of of enough and I was like, that's not biblical. Is like the he said the co her cup was running over. It's the anointing of overflow. Like that's not even biblical. Like, you know, I mean you know, and

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (43:17)
Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Billina Shaw (43:20)
I mean it is it it in in and and you know, there is a part of the Bible, you know, where where Paul says that, you know, he'll be to be content.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (43:29)
Intent.

Dr. Billina Shaw (43:30)
Yeah, but it doesn't

Dr. Billina Shaw (43:31)
necessarily mean that we can't but that that we that we can't pursue more. because Jesus said to to have life and life

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (43:36)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Billina Shaw (43:38)
more abundantly. And also it's better to give than to receive. Well, hey you have to have something to give. Like you know, like

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (43:40)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Dr. Billina Shaw (43:46)
and it's not evil to receive, it's just better to give than receive, but it's but also taking and receiving, 'cause some people feel some kind of way about receiving, that's also not bad either.

Dr. Billina Shaw (43:55)
So, you know, it's it's really understanding like the totality of who we are and where these things come from and shifting those thoughts and how they've s sat

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (44:03)
Shifting those parts of power.

Dr. Billina Shaw (44:05)
and and created these these beliefs that aren't necessarily

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (44:07)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Billina Shaw (44:09)
they they sat in a spot in us that's not necessarily true.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (44:11)
In fact, that's not the problem.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (44:14)
Yeah, yeah, I remember I always think about the story or the problem of the talents where the

Dr. Billina Shaw (44:20)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (44:21)
the the gentleman, the th four three servants were given three amounts of money to basically

Dr. Billina Shaw (44:26)
Mm-hmm.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (44:28)
while the while the owner went away. And

Dr. Billina Shaw (44:30)
Mm-hmm.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (44:31)
he when he came back he was ecstatic with all the ones that invested and mu mu made more money. And the one that said I am I am fear I was fearful and I hid it in the ground and then now here's your money.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (44:44)
Back, he's like, you wicked. We called him wicked, yeah, because he didn't invest his money and they could grow. So he took it from

Dr. Billina Shaw (44:47)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (44:52)
him and gave it to the other one that invested. So you know, there is, and that was Jesus talking. So there's a principle of investing it in the future and not

Dr. Billina Shaw (45:03)
Mm-hmm.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (45:03)
just hoarding and staying still. God wants us to move forward. Yeah, that's interesting. Thank you. Thank you, thank you.

Dr. Billina Shaw (45:08)
Yeah. Well I mean the cur the

Dr. Billina Shaw (45:10)
root word, I wasn't gonna get into it, but a little bit. The root word for currency, you know, is the same has a shared root word with the word current of water. And so when you think about flow and we st we still

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (45:21)
Yes, that's makes sense.

Dr. Billina Shaw (45:28)
use it in you know, liquid and illiquid assets, we still use this in our language now. And

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (45:32)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Billina Shaw (45:34)
but money is designed to flow.

Dr. Billina Shaw (45:37)
and and and currents they shift and they rock and they come and they go and it's so it's in it's not natural for I mean yes bonds go up, right? And some things go up. But in general our money often will ebb and flow to have that if I'm going on the camera this way, right, gotta go upwards. and and that is and that's normal to have the up and downs, but we get so scared with the downs.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (46:04)
Wow.

Dr. Billina Shaw (46:04)
scared money don't make

Dr. Billina Shaw (46:05)
no money, right? Like we don't we get so scared about the down that we don't yeah, that we we

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (46:07)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. Scared money don't make money.

Dr. Billina Shaw (46:13)
end up not getting those gains and that's a lot of what what we have to work through.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (46:20)
Yeah. You know, I have a I wanna bring it a little bit personal, I have a family member that, you know, you mentioned something earlier where they will give, but they will give to the point that it hurts them. And even then they will give beyond what they have the capacity to give. I don't understand the mindset, but

Dr. Billina Shaw (46:41)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (46:44)
for some reason I think that there is a value where they

Dr. Billina Shaw (46:47)
Yeah.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (46:48)
see themselves as being more

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (46:50)
valuable when they give, but they're giving to the point where it hurts. Of course it seems, you know, we have inherited a lot of unhealthy beliefs about money. What are two or three practical steps that a person like that, God, you know, willing if they're if they are willing, what can what practical steps can they take this week?

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (47:19)
To begin developing a healthier relationship with money.

Dr. Billina Shaw (47:24)
So so the first thing is is i you know thinking about purpose and our own purpose and because when when we just give money away and we're giving it especially to places and people that are there that the purpose is not that they're not doing purposeful things with it or they're not able or they're not able to be able to figure out how to to get out of their own cycle.

Dr. Billina Shaw (47:53)
or they're not choosing to get out of their own cycle, which I'm not, you know, judgmental about. It's just that's not that's not the choice they're making now. And if someone's just back front loading your, you know, just giving you money,

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (48:02)
Right now.

Dr. Billina Shaw (48:03)
you know, like you know, like it's it's working for right? So why are they stuck? So, you know, so,

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (48:07)
Yeah.

Dr. Billina Shaw (48:09)
so the the first thing is identifying with your purpose.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (48:11)
Just bring the right.

Dr. Billina Shaw (48:12)
This is a part of the framework that I work with people in my coaching is is getting so close to what

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (48:16)
Yeah, it's it's

Dr. Billina Shaw (48:18)
your money is for and what your vision is for your life and what your values are.

Dr. Billina Shaw (48:23)
in putting a value on all of that so that when it comes back to understanding really what what what are you losing when you're s just throwing money at someone or something and it's not

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (48:42)
Okay.

Dr. Billina Shaw (48:43)
coming back with fruit.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (48:45)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Billina Shaw (48:46)
Because there's a loss there, but you have to have a vision for what you want your money to do.

Dr. Billina Shaw (48:52)
So that you can appreciate the loss.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (48:56)
Mm. Wow.

Dr. Billina Shaw (48:56)
So that's the

Dr. Billina Shaw (48:57)
first thing is is sort of getting that that attached to your vision. The second thing is I I I I think i i if

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (49:06)
Okay.

Dr. Billina Shaw (49:06)
you feel like you're ever giving out a sense of obligation, then and as opposed to feeling a gift of a freedom of being able to have the ability to help someone, there's this gut feeling that we have and sense and l and and listening to that.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (49:22)
Okay.

Dr. Billina Shaw (49:24)
and and really feeling that out. Like it's the first thought it basically

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (49:27)
It's the first time.

Dr. Billina Shaw (49:29)
half the time is it the first thought, do you want to? Like, you know, there's times when you hear about bad things that happen to people are like, gosh, how do I help? You know, these gun f go fund me's, right? You know, when something bad happens. Like some

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (49:40)
Yeah.

Dr. Billina Shaw (49:41)
like, this is bad. I wanna help. Now if someone just on the streets like, Hey, I want them to buy the new iPhone next week, no one just throws you know, like it's there's no I there's no no no gun go fund me for that.

Dr. Billina Shaw (49:53)
you know, because there's not like people don't feel attached to it. But if it's like I want to,

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (49:53)
Yeah.

Dr. Billina Shaw (49:57)
I get to help support someone in something, then that is a difference when you feel like you get to as opposed to have to.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (50:05)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Billina Shaw (50:08)
and then I would I would say that the other piece is the th then the third one is you know, just going back to the Bible, the Bible also says to not cast your pearls among the swine. Right?

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (50:19)
Yeah.

Dr. Billina Shaw (50:20)
So it's it's not biblical to be just giving money away when it's not necessarily going to a a p a place that's that that's being the where it's being valued and it's and it's really be you know, creating a sense of purpose or or or executing someone else's purpose. so those

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (50:40)
please mouse progress.

Dr. Billina Shaw (50:41)
are those are my my top three at the moment. I think that was about three. Yeah.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (50:46)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. wow, Dr. Shaw, thank you so much for the wealth of information that you have given us. I think that we have to have you back on to talk about that water analogy. Yes. Because I think that there's I think that you have a lot still up your sleeve for us. This has been again.

Dr. Billina Shaw (51:07)
I actually I actually

Dr. Billina Shaw (51:08)
am planning a retreat. I I I'm I it's in it's in the works, it's in the head in the works, but but I wanted to do a retreat on currents. and because yeah, I was I was actually in Puerto Rico a couple of weeks ago, actually when I when I met you at the the National Medical Association conference. And

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (51:22)
Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Billina Shaw (51:23)
I was sitting in by the water and God told me to write down the qualities of water and I'm like, Okay, all right. And then later on I started getting a lot of revelation about it, but it really helped

Dr. Billina Shaw (51:36)
and my journey too about shifting relationship with money and and and the importance of it. And so yeah, I I actually look forward to having a a retreat too, to really have people shape their relationship with money face post on

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (51:50)
Well, please keep us informed. Everyone, this wraps up another episode of the Apex Health Podcast. We'd like to thank our guest, Dr. Shaw, for sharing her time, her expertise, and insights with us today. And thank you for joining the conversation. If you found this episode valuable, please like, sh subscribe, and share it with someone who could benefit. It helps us continue bringing you meaningful conversations.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (52:19)
With leaders shaping the future of healthcare. To learn more about today's guests, access any resources mentioned in this episode, or connect with Apex Healthcare Team, visit the links in the episode's description. Thank you again, Dr. Shaw. It's been amazing. I've learned a lot. I know that my all the listeners will learn a lot from what we've talked about today. And please we'll have your link also.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (52:47)
on our website so that they can maybe even sign up for your your retreat. That's amazing. Yeah. I wanna hear so much more.

Dr. Billina Shaw (52:52)
Or or the coaching and people

Dr. Billina Shaw (52:54)
people would love to I'd love to to continue to work with other people and do and executing some of these things that we talked.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (53:02)
Thank you again. You have a wonderful day and thank you, audience, for joining us. Thank you. Bye bye.

Dr. Billina Shaw (53:07)
Thank you.