Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (00:10)
Hello and welcome to another great episode of Apex Health Podcast. I'm Dr. Alex Evans. I'm a general surgeon and trauma surgeon here in the Washington, D.C. area. And my co-host, Candice Caesar, mental health nurse practitioner, also in the Washington, DC area. We're here with Apex Health, and we're here to bring to you together leaders that shape healthcare. Everyone from physicians, nurses,

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (00:39)
Healthcare executives, that's right, policymakers, people who are it leading insurance companies, researchers and innovators. That's right. All to have honest conversations about issues that impact your life. Our goal is simple: to make healthcare easier to understand, to bring trusted voices, fresh perspectives, and practical insights that inform, inspire, and empower.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (01:09)
All of us. That's right. Thank you so much for joining us. Let's dive right in. Who do we have today? Our guest today, he built one of the fastest growing AI documentation tools in mental health care. And let me tell you, I'm excited about it because I'm a mental health nurse practitioner, okay? But his inspiration, it didn't come from a mere business plan.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (01:30)
It came from sitting in exam rooms with his own son. Wow. This is a really tender thing, you guys. Watching a system. He was watching a system that wasn't built to see his son. Please, please, honor and welcome Naaman Jafar, founder of CliniScripts and Market Tech AI. All right. Welcome, welcome.

Nauman Jaffar (01:53)
Thank you so much.

Nauman Jaffar (01:55)
Thank you, Doctor Evans and Akandis, for the opportunity. I'm so excited

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (01:57)
Yes, yes.

Nauman Jaffar (01:58)
to be here.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (01:59)
Yeah. So let's start with you and not the resume. Tell us who you are in your own words, not your title.

Nauman Jaffar (02:08)
Absolutely. So as you said, I am a father first and entrepreneur or a builder second.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (02:12)
And

Nauman Jaffar (02:14)
I'm curious by nature and have a hard time accepting that broken process is simply how the system works. So my personal

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (02:24)
Yeah. Yes.

Nauman Jaffar (02:25)
career has been in technology and business for the last twenty, twenty-five years. And but I I'm not interested in technology for its own sake. I'm

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (02:34)
Mm.

Nauman Jaffar (02:34)
interested in whether it gives people more time.

Nauman Jaffar (02:37)
More independence and better care. So

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (02:40)
Mm-hmm.

Nauman Jaffar (02:40)
my my son's journey made that very personal, as you said

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (02:44)
And

Nauman Jaffar (02:45)
in your introduction. And it taught me that a family can be surrounded by capable, loving, caring professionals

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (02:50)
It will

Nauman Jaffar (02:52)
and still feel alone because nobody holds the whole story, as in the case of autism. a lot a lot of what

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (02:55)
Wow.

Nauman Jaffar (03:01)
I have built and I build, continue to build comes from that.

Nauman Jaffar (03:07)
tension. Good people, fragmented information, and families left to connect everything themselves.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (03:15)
Yeah. Wow. Thank you so much for for for sharing that with us about your personal journey to trying to solve a problem that was impacting your family. Before we continue, I wanna pause for a moment and explain to our listeners what autism spectrum disorder really means. So we have some foundation. Okay? So according to the DSM five, autism is a newer developmental condition. So

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (03:44)
Basically, what that means, it involves ongoing challenges with social communication, social interaction, along with restrictive or repetitive behaviors. They may have repetitive interests or may really zone into certain activities. These characteristics begin early in childhood and they can affect daily functioning. So when we use the word spectrum, we're not describing a straight line from mild to severe.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (04:11)
Think of it like somewhat of a color wheel. Every person on the autism spectrum has a different combination of traits, strengths, challenges, communication styles, or even sensory overload. Some of them, you know, they get really sensitive to noise and light and so forth. One person may speak fluently while the other struggles to read social cues.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (04:36)
They have difficulty coping with change or manage sensory overload, like I said before. Another may use few or no spoken words at all and may need substantial help with everyday activities. Both are on the spectrum. The purpose here is not to compare one person with another, like we've heard, my gosh, this person who has autism autism spectrum disorder is a neurosurgeon. That is not the case here. We don't want to compare them, but we want to understand the whole person.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (05:04)
And what support helps that particular individual thrive. Okay? Wow. So thank you for that. Yeah. So I want our listeners to really understand because your son is on the spectrum, what has this journey through the healthcare system taught you as a father?

Nauman Jaffar (05:22)
Yeah, great question, Kenna. So what what it taught me is that expertise and continuity are not the same thing. as I said before, we met many committed, loving professionals, but each person often saw one slice of my son. So as an example, my son we were dealing with a pediatrician first, then a development pediatrician, a child psychiatrist.

Nauman Jaffar (05:47)
Then we were dealing with an ABA, IBA specialist, then a therapist that would come

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (05:49)
Yeah, I think it's just and benefits.

Nauman Jaffar (05:52)
to our home to do the sessions. Then we were also dealing with occupational therapists, physical therapists, speech therapists, and you name it, right? One by one, one

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (05:57)
Wow, yeah.

Nauman Jaffar (06:02)
appointment and one setting one at one phase of our life. So what I saw as

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (06:07)
And that's all.

Nauman Jaffar (06:09)
an opportunity is that family became the memory of the system. We repeat it again and again.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (06:11)
Mm-hmm. That's true.

Nauman Jaffar (06:15)
As we moved from one house to the other, from one school to the other, we repeated the history, carried the documents, and tried to explain

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (06:22)
Yes, yeah.

Nauman Jaffar (06:23)
that what had changed between the visits. So what it also taught me is of course humil humility. A child can behave differently at home, at school, and in therapy. One difficult session does not define him, and one good

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (06:25)
What you have to change. Mm-hmm.

Nauman Jaffar (06:39)
session does not prove that the skill has generalized. So you need to see the person over time.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (06:43)
It's either

Nauman Jaffar (06:45)
So most of all, I learned that the goal should never be to make a child look more typical or normal in our world. The goal is to

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (06:45)
possible. Mm-hmm. Okay.

Nauman Jaffar (06:55)
support the communication, the independence, autonomy, safety, confidence, and a better life as defined with that person and family. So the family should be part of the care team and not the filing system that holds the care team together.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (07:12)
I I love how you said the family holds the memory, but isn't it too much to ask the family to hold this while caring for their child? I'm glad that you have really put together this system to help us. Thank you. Mm-hmm.

Nauman Jaffar (07:27)
My pleasure, thank you.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (07:29)
So when you talk about the family holding the memory, I guess the next what I would like to delve into is, you know, what was re the real motivation behind, you know, what you were building? Like what did you try to solve? You know, you've done a telehealth company in the past, you've done remote patient monitoring, you even have a a vital detection company.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (07:59)
But here you've built a new system or a system that really was geared to support your child. Tell us more about like what were you trying to solve?

Nauman Jaffar (08:11)
Yeah, yeah, no, that's an amazing question, Dr. Evan. So as you can tell, I am a serial entrepreneur. This is actually my sixth startup in the last eleven years. and they

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (08:20)
Wow.

Nauman Jaffar (08:20)
they look like different companies. As you said, I have a t I started a telemedicine company. I have

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (08:24)
Mm-hmm.

Nauman Jaffar (08:26)
my own software development company that focuses on healthcare, remote

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (08:29)
Mm-hmm.

Nauman Jaffar (08:29)
patient monitoring, and a few other products that I also launched. But to me, they're all chapters of the same problem. Healthcare. Healthcare has

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (08:37)
Yeah, yeah.

Nauman Jaffar (08:39)
Two little useful useful context at the moment a decision is made. So I'll give you an example. When I started my telemedicine company, my my aunt actually was going through medical misdiagnosis. And I started your doctors online where I wanted to make it easy for somebody like myself or her family to to access an oncologist as an example, because we knew that she was being misdiagnosed by a family physician.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (09:06)
But you will use the back of the

Nauman Jaffar (09:08)
And in Canada, it was taking a lot of time to see the specialist as an example. So telehealth, that company actually reduced the distance between a person and a clinician. Then I started remote monitoring, which tried to show

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (09:16)
Mm-hmm. Of course.

Nauman Jaffar (09:22)
what was happening between appointments. So again, that company was more a motivation of my father who was who was in Pakistan, both my parents in their 80s and 90s, 10,000, 11,000 kilometers away.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (09:26)
Yeah, it's working on purpose. there's

Nauman Jaffar (09:36)
And us me not being able to take care of them, feeling guilty, I actually came up with that comp with with that product which was Kel's call was the remote pain monitoring, which tried to show what was happening between appointments. So I could see,

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (09:40)
a company that is custom, which everything was happy with why

Nauman Jaffar (09:52)
you know, how many steps, what time they were at to waking up, what was their blood pressure, and all those things. The touchless vitals reduced the burden of collecting basic health signals. Again, with my parents who were

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (10:00)
Right. So if you're not making this

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (10:03)
customer.

Nauman Jaffar (10:03)
Not that most tech savvy. and sometimes, you know, when you were doing FaceTime, I wanted the capability for myself or my brother, who actually is a physician, to be able to take their vital. So Cleany Scripts, which is one of our latest scribe companies and a customized

Nauman Jaffar (10:21)
EMR platform, started by reducing the documentation work and turning the clinician, the clinical conversation into a useful, usable record.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (10:24)
And I've already seen the players

Nauman Jaffar (10:32)
So under you will

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (10:32)
and

Nauman Jaffar (10:33)
see that underneath all of them was the same question. How do we help care happen

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (10:39)
Yeah.

Nauman Jaffar (10:39)
earlier with less friction and with a fuller picture of the person? I was never trying to replace the clinician. That wasn't the intent. What I was trying is to make sure that the clinician did not have to work from a snapshot when the patient was living a continuous life. So healthcare, I believe, happens

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (10:57)
And no.

Nauman Jaffar (10:59)
in continuously.

Nauman Jaffar (11:00)
our information about it should arrive should not arrive in fragments. So it should be there for that clinician.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (11:04)
wow.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (11:08)
You know, you s what you said is so powerful. Yeah. You know, as a trauma surgeon, I have patients coming in and I literally see a snapshot. And part of my problem throughout my entire career is when I'm just seeing this one snapshot, I get a few sometimes I don't get any history, but other times I actually do get a few snippets.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (11:30)
But I don't know where they are on that continuum. So I'm trying to emergently take care of someone, put them in the ICU and start all these medications, and I have no clue. And just to have some documentation that comes to me, even if they're if their family members have that information on an app or something like that, that's that's that's amazing information.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (11:58)
You you seem to have rooted a lot of your a lot of your products based on personal experiences. Yeah. And it seems to me that, you know, you've looked, going back to your son, you've looked at so many different aspects of his life, the therapist, the physician, the schools, the insurers, the community programs, etc. It seems to me that still

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (12:28)
These things are fragmented. You know, why does that system seem so fragmented and and have you thought of or is this part of the solution that you're creating? Tell me a little bit more about like first of all, why is it so fragmented?

Nauman Jaffar (12:43)
Yeah. So I I think the simple answer is that the system is organized around, I guess, institutions, right? So either it is ABA

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (12:50)
Yeah.

Nauman Jaffar (12:51)
clinics, it either it's a pediatric clinic, either it's a school, it's it's in organized around funding streams like in US Medicare insurance here in Canada, it is in Ontario Aud Ontario Autism Program, and then professional boundaries, like I'm sure you both understand being a c a surgeon and a clinician and

Nauman Jaffar (13:12)
nurse practitioner is like there's professional boundaries right college of

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (13:14)
Yeah.

Nauman Jaffar (13:15)
physicians that you have to follow so while this family life is organized around this one person right so yeah yeah

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (13:21)
Exactly. Yeah, one child.

Nauman Jaffar (13:24)
so so so a therapist what I saw in 15 years of observing and investing in in him the therapist has one record the physician who sees him for

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (13:36)
That's another

Nauman Jaffar (13:36)
for 10 minutes in a year

Nauman Jaffar (13:39)
or maybe if you're you know lucky twice a year the physician has another the school where he goes from nine to let's say four o'clock or three o'clock uses a completely

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (13:48)
Mm-hmm.

Nauman Jaffar (13:50)
different language and goals. The insurance

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (13:51)
Mm-hmm.

Nauman Jaffar (13:52)
sees the authorization and the billing course, the community programs may sit outside all of it. Like as an example, I take him to the swim classes or I'm taking him to organiz to OT classes, like

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (13:54)
Mm-hmm.

Nauman Jaffar (14:07)
So each each organization can do its own job reasonably well while the overall journey still falls at the handoffs. So

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (14:16)
Mm-hmm.

Nauman Jaffar (14:17)
that is the problem that we we thought we will and we are trying to solve. That there is also no clear ownership

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (14:24)
Yeah.

Nauman Jaffar (14:25)
of continuity, right? Coordination is essential. That was left to me and my wife. of

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (14:27)
Mm-hmm.

Nauman Jaffar (14:31)
course, my wife took the lead on that, but it is often unpaid.

Nauman Jaffar (14:35)
Under supported work.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (14:36)
Mm.

Nauman Jaffar (14:37)
So the parent becomes the project manager, right? The historian, the translator.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (14:41)
We can put it in.

Nauman Jaffar (14:42)
and the technology I feel can help connect that kind of information, but only if it works across existing systems. And and what I mean

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (14:51)
Mm-hmm.

Nauman Jaffar (14:52)
by that, I'm sure you know this. We've had some conversations around EMRs, right? So there's so

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (14:57)
Right.

Nauman Jaffar (14:57)
many of them out there, and it gives the family and eventually I think it is the parent or the patient themselves that.

Nauman Jaffar (15:05)
Family controls that data and another closed database

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (15:07)
Isn't it?

Nauman Jaffar (15:09)
would add one more fragment. So the system is divided by

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (15:13)
Yeah.

Nauman Jaffar (15:13)
service and the child is not.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (15:16)
Mm. So let me ask this as a following. So how do you connect what you've built to all of those other services so they get the complete picture just the way you now have?

Nauman Jaffar (15:32)
So so so what we are trying to do is we are trying to create this memory layer on of autism. And we are going to observe the kid over a due course of time, taking a multi-model. What I mean by that is we are listening, we are looking, observing both the therapist and the kid, and we are also listening and seeing everything that is happening in that.

Nauman Jaffar (16:01)
you know session that is happening between a a therapist and a kid. We also have information about the programs that the BCPA or the lead clinician has or the supervisor has actually created for the kid and then we are also going across to the school

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (16:16)
Mm-hmm.

Nauman Jaffar (16:19)
and figuring out what is happening there. So the bottom line is for one kid we are able to collect the data and see and of course there's the parents who are seeing the kid

Nauman Jaffar (16:30)
For a long period of time during, like as an example, my son is in like somewhere not doing

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (16:31)
Yeah, that's yeah.

Nauman Jaffar (16:35)
anything. He's here for three, three months, right? Taking the months off. So

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (16:38)
Mm-hmm.

Nauman Jaffar (16:40)
all of them, we observe it and we

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (16:42)
Yeah.

Nauman Jaffar (16:42)
create a memory layer around every kiddo. And that is then we are we are actually creating a model, an AI model that will be able to detect and not predict, but

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (16:46)
I think it's a very important thing to think that we did.

Nauman Jaffar (16:54)
initially just nudge you know, the therapist or the parent.

Nauman Jaffar (16:59)
of what works and what does not work for as an example for myself.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (17:03)
Okay, so take me into that room, right? What does what does it actually look like? Break it down for our listeners. What does that actually, you know what are we looking at?

Nauman Jaffar (17:16)
So so what we are looking at, like a are you are you talking about the research or are you talking about an active sorry, an research?

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (17:19)
Like like the practical

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (17:23)
application of this you know tool. How is

Nauman Jaffar (17:27)
Yes.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (17:27)
it used?

Nauman Jaffar (17:28)
Absolutely. So the way it's going to work is so let's assume I'm a therapist working with a kiddo, right? And of

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (17:35)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Nauman Jaffar (17:37)
course I have a set program. So in autism, I'm sure you know this, Candace. When you do your DSM, you actually would give it over to a BCBA. They will sit and create a program based on the you know the strengths and weaknesses and what the parents want to be able to see. Now those programs

Nauman Jaffar (17:55)
Are then not run by the BCABCBA, but it's actually a therapist or a psychotherapist who actually runs an RBT

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (18:01)
Right.

Nauman Jaffar (18:02)
or a psychotherapist who runs that. So in a session, like for hours, like for two hours, four hours, six hours, actually a therapist running that session. So the idea here is that in future, when we've created this memory layer and we've created this

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (18:07)
I have two others processed because I do have something else. So the other thing is that we need this to be

Nauman Jaffar (18:20)
application that will sit on any EMR, it'll be

Nauman Jaffar (18:24)
EMR agnostic, the clinician or the therapist will be able to do their session, but at the same time, they will start getting nudges on their on

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (18:25)
Mm-hmm.

Nauman Jaffar (18:35)
their laptop or on their phone or on their if they if they want to

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (18:40)
Think.

Nauman Jaffar (18:40)
do it on their on their watch as well or iPad. So they will say, Okay, you're doing great at this. so if a th if a kid throws a tantrum or if the kid is not

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (18:43)
Okay.

Nauman Jaffar (18:51)
you know responding to certain things.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (18:53)
Mm-hmm. This is a small piece.

Nauman Jaffar (18:54)
Because this is a junior therapist, typically these therapists

Nauman Jaffar (18:57)
are just out of diploma holder, they're out of college, they are either studying, and there's a huge turnover risk

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (19:00)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Nauman Jaffar (19:02)
as well. So the idea is that we will feed and we will nudge and help that therapist

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (19:07)
I think.

Nauman Jaffar (19:08)
who's actually doing the session to do a better session and get more goals observed by the kid.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (19:16)
wow, wow. So it's actually helping the therapist become a better therapist for that particular client by stepping into the room, sort of. So they kind of click on that button. Like you said, it is agnostic. It sits above the EMRs, right?

Nauman Jaffar (19:30)
Yes.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (19:30)
Whatever EMRs you have, and it sort of listens and observes what's going on in the room and gives real time feedback to that therapist. Yeah. That's pretty amazing. That's pretty

Nauman Jaffar (19:41)
Absolutely. Yes.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (19:43)
amazing. Yeah.

Nauman Jaffar (19:44)
Yeah. So yeah. So it's like I'll give you an

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (19:45)
Yeah, when is it coming out?

Nauman Jaffar (19:48)
example, like you Dr. Evans is doing a surgery, or you know, he's and and there is a camera which is observing what is happening and then the monitor he's he like there is a senior surgeon you know who's actually recommending because if he he's getting confused, I guess he's nudging, hey, do this. I'm just kidding.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (20:04)
Yeah, he's getting confused. Senior surgeon to me, I I I I'm sorry, back up.

Nauman Jaffar (20:11)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (20:11)
I'm the one that's advising. No, he's getting

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (20:15)
confused. He needs direction.

Nauman Jaffar (20:17)
Yeah.

Nauman Jaffar (20:19)
Like it's like Google. It's a Google for you, right? And helping you in a real time basis. Yes. Yeah.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (20:20)
Yeah. There you go. Yeah, but it's real time Google, you know what mean? So

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (20:27)
no but this is exciting. This is exciting, you know?

Nauman Jaffar (20:31)
Thank you, thank you.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (20:31)
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So So now that we're talked a little bit more about, you know, the the actual product and and and what you've been building, how does the

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (20:50)
When you you actually described a little bit about the actual monitoring and interaction with the patient and the clinician, which is really important. But in autism care specifically, what are clinicians often missing when that your tool can catch? Like what what is it that the goal to to really feed them, particularly on the clinician side? We talked a little

Nauman Jaffar (21:16)
Yeah.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (21:17)
bit about the therapy side.

Nauman Jaffar (21:18)
Yeah, yeah. I I would I would not frame it as clinicians failing to notice. I think a therapist is managing the relationship, the programs, the the safety, the prompts, the reinforcement, the documentation at the same time. There's they have a lot on their plate, right? and they didn't come you didn't come into this profession,

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (21:33)
Mm-hmm.

Nauman Jaffar (21:37)
Dr. Evans or Candace, to actually take notes, right?

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (21:40)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Nauman Jaffar (21:41)
you came into this profession.

Nauman Jaffar (21:43)
To to to make the patient feel better, right? And to do service to that. So no human being can

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (21:44)
They could push that.

Nauman Jaffar (21:49)
deliver care and count every small event to the second. The tool is going to help surface

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (21:52)
Mm-hmm.

Nauman Jaffar (21:56)
what we call micro patterns, right? Whether response time changes

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (21:59)
Yeah, it's possible.

Nauman Jaffar (22:00)
after a certain prompt, whether independence is increasing, whether engagement drops at a same point in a task, or whether a subtle precursor tends to appear.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (22:03)
But most of these people have stuck the use of people that's not changed. But the reference one and there's

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (22:11)
one side.

Nauman Jaffar (22:12)
before you know a c a kid throws a tantrum or an escalation happens. So across weeks, it may reveal that something is improving slowly, even when a single session looks unchanged. Or what apparent progress depends on one therapist or or or one setting. So the clinician is

Nauman Jaffar (22:31)
better at at at meaning is better at meaning I I guess the a well designed what they need is a well designed tool that can be better at consistent counting.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (22:31)
It should prefer that you had any other system design for me to sign that maybe better because

Nauman Jaffar (22:42)
The the value comes from putting those two strengths together, the clinician and a well-designed tool that does all the measurement and giving them the nudge. So this is not a second opinion platform. It is a better memory and a more patient observer, is the way that I will position this.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (22:43)
this is okay. So this is the second thing that we have to basically.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (23:00)
So to break it a little further down for our audience, it's almost like it's almost like building a house, I would say, where you have a foundation, but then when you're planning a house, you you also have your goals. Yeah, you're you're this week we're going to build the sidewalls, the next week we're gonna build a roof, the next week we're going to build all the inner walls, and then we're going to paint and then electric and all these things. So you have like

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (23:30)
like definitely goals that you're reaching. I think what I'm hearing is that a lot of times children aren't necessarily seen to be reaching certain goals by the tools that we already have, because again, you you just mentioned therapists may change, clinicians only see them twice a year. Schools are you know are indifferent sometimes because they just have so many children. The the only

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (24:00)
person that's really intimately involved with that is the parent and they can get frustrated if they don't see defined progress over time. And what your tool can do is help everyone number one define the progresses, define the goals, and then click on those goals as a as each therapy helps that patient. If it doesn't help the young man or young girl, then

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (24:29)
We removed it and reassessed. Yeah. I think that is brilliant. Well,

Nauman Jaffar (24:33)
Yes, absolutely. You you nailed it, Doc Times. Yep, yep.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (24:37)
yeah, and I love the continuity of care. Right. Right? The care doesn't stop because, hey, that clinician is no longer here. Another clinician can pick up. And what I also love about it, I absolutely love it. It takes me a little while to kind of get like a therapeutic relationship going with the client. But this tool, if it's giving you feedback.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (24:58)
Then that memory, you know, you're able to kind of like catch on to things a lot sooner. So my relationship with that person develops rather quickly. Like I'm anticipating things, I'm able to say certain things because you know we're progressing with the help of this AI tool. That's just amazing. Amazing. I want

Nauman Jaffar (25:16)
Absolutely.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (25:19)
to bring another thing, another, just another perspective. Okay, so for parents, all right.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (25:25)
Bringing a child into therapy can already feel vulnerable. They may be discussing outbursts, daily routines, and also private ways that they manage difficult moments. When cameras and AI are added, even if it's a tool that's designed to fix the problem, it can feel like, my gosh, is this a judgment tool? You know, because my child is having an episode, or is it exposing?

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (25:53)
This parent-child relationship, right? The child may also feel, I don't know if on their end they'll they have something, they may feel watched or uncomfortable. So building trust may require making the experience feel safe, transparent, and even engaging through a child-friendly explanations or gamification while giving families genuine choice and control. So, how do you build and protect trust with both the parent and the child?

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (26:21)
When cameras and AI are observing such s a sensitive interaction.

Nauman Jaffar (26:27)
Yeah, no, I think that's a brilliant question. So I think my two cents on that is that trust actually starts with the choice, not with the a privacy policy. So a parent or guardian must give informed consent to whatever we are doing. A therapist must must also give consent. Of course, the clinic also gives the consent. because everybody loves the kid, the child, right? The system, the clinicians, the parents,

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (26:53)
Right, good job.

Nauman Jaffar (26:55)
of course, they all want him to progress.

Nauman Jaffar (26:57)
So a child's assent or objection as an example has to matter in a way that is practical in the room, right? So if a child is uncomfortable,

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (26:59)
Yes, objection as a hundred is something like this.

Nauman Jaffar (27:06)
the recording stops. the care continues

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (27:09)
Yeah.

Nauman Jaffar (27:09)
exactly as it would have without the technology. So so as I said, you know,

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (27:15)
Yeah.

Nauman Jaffar (27:15)
so if if the clinician is not comfortable with the nudges, we also have another option, which is at the end of the session, we give them recommendation of what went well.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (27:21)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Nauman Jaffar (27:24)
What did not go well, what are some of the things that you could do differently next time based on the memory, based on the observations. Right? So so so so we should we should collect only what is needed for a defined purpose. Access must be restricted and logged,

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (27:40)
Okay.

Nauman Jaffar (27:41)
and identity should be separated from the research data. Families need clear answers about where this information is stored, how long it is kept.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (27:44)
Yes, yes, very important.

Nauman Jaffar (27:52)
Who can see it, whether it can be used for research, and how they can withdraw. So there are also there also has to be a firm I would say, cultural boundary that this cannot become a hidden staff surveillance or a disciplinary scorecard. That's not the intent. the families and clinicians, yeah. The families and the clinicians

Nauman Jaffar (28:15)
should understand that the system can and cannot

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (28:18)
And

Nauman Jaffar (28:19)
in an infer if we cannot explain the use clearly enough

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (28:20)
if you beat what it's taking for the idea.

Nauman Jaffar (28:23)
for a family to make a comfortable choice, we are not ready to collect data. So comfort is not

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (28:28)
wow.

Nauman Jaffar (28:30)
an obstacle to overcome, it is a boundary that we have to honor.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (28:32)
And then

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (28:34)
I love the fact that you are holding your company the standards to such a high standard. You're saying look, integrity matters, transparency matters, and we want to give the parents the ability to choose. I love that. So based on what you've shared, who is this tool ultimately designed to support? Is it the clinician, the child, the parent, or all three? And how do those benefits work together?

Nauman Jaffar (29:01)
Yeah. I think I would I would also add the the society, I would also add the the insurance and the peer, like in Ontario,

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (29:07)
And and

Nauman Jaffar (29:10)
it's the Ontario Autism Program. I I I think if you go and Google how the Medicare expenses

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (29:16)
Mm-hmm.

Nauman Jaffar (29:17)
are going through the roof of autism in all the states. So they they are a big, big because

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (29:19)
Yes. Mm-hmm.

Nauman Jaffar (29:22)
that's taxpayers' money as well. So potentially all of them, but the sequence matters, I think. We should begin with

Nauman Jaffar (29:30)
what we call an after session review. help the clinician. As I said, you know, they they will get nudges during the session, but if it is distracting, they can stop that. But after the session, they get a recommendation of what went well, what did not go well, or what for for next session, what they should try. Right? As if there is a very senior clinician or a BCBA who's sitting in the room and observing that. So that's what the camera is doing basically, if you think about it. And helps the

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (29:32)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Nauman Jaffar (30:00)
And also helps the clinician see patterns because you know the senior therapists of the BCBA or RBS, that's what they called here, they're never in the room. They're supervising after every five,

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (30:01)
Just the prior person.

Nauman Jaffar (30:11)
ten, twenty sessions. And you know, there's a huge, huge demand. there's not enough of those BCBAs. So they're overworked as well. So it helps the clinician see the patterns, compare sessions, and reflect on what worked and what did not work. This is, I think that is the that is low risk and easier to validate. Now.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (30:14)
Yeah. I think that's the easy idea.

Nauman Jaffar (30:30)
The real-time support may come later. For example, a quite prompt that a response latency in increasing or that a prompt has not been faded, but it it should not but it should only appear after an underlying measurement is reliable and the intervention has been tested prospectively. So even then the clinician accepts edits or he or she ignores the suggestion, right? or what we call the nudges. So the system

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (30:42)
But should we go up there? Okay. Okay.

Nauman Jaffar (30:59)
Should never prescribe treatment. That is not the intent. That is never the intent anonymously. Or reduce a clinician to a score. No. The clinician owns the decision. The AI supplies evidence, the memory, and eventually carefully tested suggestions.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (31:12)
Yeah.

Nauman Jaffar (31:15)
That's basically the the the main point here. Support is in the moment and is the destination. The

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (31:19)
Yeah, it's a more piece of report.

Nauman Jaffar (31:23)
trustworthiness reflection is the starting point.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (31:27)
Wow. You mentioned trust. what safeguards have to exist before AI bel belongs in a child a child's mental health care? Like what what what are what safeguards have you built? What what is what is there? 'Cause it goes all the way back to as we mentioned, she mentioned trust. Mm-hmm.

Nauman Jaffar (31:50)
Yeah,

Nauman Jaffar (31:51)
yeah, absolutely. So so the burden of proof should be higher when a person is a child, I believe, because you know, in this case it's an autistic kid who does not maybe even know what is happening and the data is is is is intimate, right? Because they're observing for hours. So the first in in a in our research, the first use has to serve a real clinical or family

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (32:07)
And of course, okay with the plus.

Nauman Jaffar (32:15)
need, not collect data simply because we can.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (32:19)
Mm.

Nauman Jaffar (32:20)
Second, consent must be informed, revocable, and paired with I I believe the meaningful assent or the objection from the child or the parent. The thirdly, the system has to be validated on the population

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (32:32)
Yes, this is

Nauman Jaffar (32:34)
and real world settings where it will be used, including the messy cases where cameras are blocked, behavior varies, and the data is incomplete. So we also need human oversight. like we have.

Nauman Jaffar (32:49)
the what we call the research ethics board. We have academicians who are involved in this. We have clinicians. We have visible uncertainty. They have bias testing, strict access to the data and retention rules.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (32:52)
And there's good questions about script.

Nauman Jaffar (33:01)
so independent clinicians and ethics so as I said below before, a clear response when the system is wrong. So AI should not autonomously diagnose, prescribe or determine eligibility or decide whether a family receives

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (33:05)
speaking that was right.

Nauman Jaffar (33:17)
care. So that's

Nauman Jaffar (33:18)
My simple rule is very is is is that if the technology weakens dignity, choice or the clinician family relationship, it does not belong in the room, no matter how impressive the model is. So in children's care, child's dignity outranks the product role.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (33:19)
wow,

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (33:36)
wow. So just to push a little bit further on that point, you mentioned independence and

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (33:46)
you didn't actually say the word, but I'm assuming you have a governing body or governance that then looks over the application. Now, obviously when the buzzword comes out AI, everyone's thinking, okay, what are the fail points in AI? And one of them is bias. Describe a little bit on how you protect against varying or variance in the goal.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (34:15)
As the AI learns, sometimes it varies its its its mission and then creates bias. So

Nauman Jaffar (34:22)
Yeah.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (34:22)
h how are we measuring that and how are we protecting it? Against that. Mm-hmm. Good question.

Nauman Jaffar (34:27)
Yeah, no, I think that's an amazing

Nauman Jaffar (34:28)
question. so actually with cleaning scripts, when we were developing the AI scribe for mental health, how it's different from other specialities is mental health, I'm sure Candace, you can attest to it. An average session is forty five, sixty minutes versus a clinician is only, you know, maybe s I'll be lucky if they see me for five, ten, fifteen minutes. Right. So yeah, yeah.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (34:48)
Fifteen Fifteen is long.

Nauman Jaffar (34:53)
So so so the so the so the biasness

Nauman Jaffar (34:57)
So the longer the session, the more chances of hallucination in AI, right? So we had to work a couple of years just to remove those biases and come keep

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (35:06)
Mm-hmm.

Nauman Jaffar (35:07)
going back to the clinician of the output that was coming in and then continue to develop that memory layer. So it took us a lot more time to reduce those hallucinations, remove the bias, ha have

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (35:19)
Mm-hmm.

Nauman Jaffar (35:19)
the clinicians review our outputs that the clin AI was giving, and only when they were comfortable.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (35:26)
How

Nauman Jaffar (35:27)
were we able to actually

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (35:27)
do you have

Nauman Jaffar (35:29)
you know and even to lock the the the model or the prompts I would say and even right now the model that we are

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (35:32)
Well,

Nauman Jaffar (35:37)
going to create we are starting off with the 500 to a thousand videos but that's that's kind of the phase one of the model that we will create but we have to collect much much more and many many more videos and get them annotated which I haven't talked about so each one of these videos

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (35:52)
Can make that centric pictures of the

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (35:56)
session happy. Okay.

Nauman Jaffar (35:56)
that we will be collecting consented videos from both the therapist and the and the child of the therapy session happening. They all will be annotated by a senior therapist in different parts of the world. So it won't not be only the Canadian BCBAs or RBAs, that's what we call them. It will also be US-based BCBAs. So we'll mix and match each, we'll try to ask them to actually look at each other's

Nauman Jaffar (36:22)
annotation as well.

Nauman Jaffar (36:23)
Right, so that we can remove

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (36:23)
Okay, yeah.

Nauman Jaffar (36:24)
the bias as much as possible. So the more data we have, that re the more videos we have, the more annotation we have, the more the bias actually is removed. Dr. Evans. Yeah.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (36:34)
It's gonna reduce it. Yeah,

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (36:35)
and I I'm glad that you you brought up you know location, regional, nationalities, because as we know, different populations have been able to access care differently. And furthermore, different populations, i.e. lower s socioeconomic classes, minorities, etc., have not been intimately involved in research for

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (37:02)
with any modality but particularly AI. And so it is now I think even more important because garbage in, garbage out. If you're building the models with only one socio econom demographic or socioeconomic pr platform, then when it looks at another there's gonna be bias just by what

Nauman Jaffar (37:23)
Absolutely.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (37:24)
is it. So how are you pushing to include all groups, all

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (37:30)
minorities, all nationalities, etcetera.

Nauman Jaffar (37:33)
Yeah, no, I think that's that's that's again a very good question. So initially, of course, we have to start small. We have to start somewhere, right? so we are starting with about three, four clinics. We are including

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (37:45)
Mm-hmm.

Nauman Jaffar (37:46)
universities both here in Canada and US. we're trying to

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (37:48)
Because

Nauman Jaffar (37:49)
sign up with Northwestern as well. We're having some initial conversation. They have a huge kids department, both on the speech side in US and in Canada. So our initial focus of course is going to be here, but

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (37:57)
Okay. Yeah.

Nauman Jaffar (38:02)
you're absolutely right. The clinish, the sorry, the the kids or the parents that we are selecting in this, we are deliberately trying to keep them as diversified as possible. Okay, so that's that's how we're trying to do in different locations. Diversity of age, gender, like gender, demographics, area, like all

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (38:22)
Gender, yeah.

Nauman Jaffar (38:25)
those things as much as we can with the limited funds that we have, but we that that model that comes out will only be the phase one.

Nauman Jaffar (38:31)
Rollantly perfect, but we need to increase, keep increasing.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (38:35)
Yeah. You know, Alex mentioned, you know, socioeconomic status and so forth, but we've seen that males present more with autism than females, and it's not that females don't have autism, it's just that a lot of females learn to mask these symptoms pretty early on. So if you're a female and you're a woman you're and you're out there, I want you to know that hey, you know, autism is something that you should be ashamed of. It's something that you should absolutely get help for.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (39:04)
and I hope that as you are looking at the socioeconomic statuses and all of that stuff that you're also looking at females that you know typically don't really present as males with autism. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Nauman Jaffar (39:18)
Absolutely. That's that's a very good point, yeah.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (39:20)
So I would like to s to end where we started with your son. I don't I feel like I know him. You know, through you, through the technology that you've built.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (39:33)
I think that he's given something incredible to us as clinicians. And I really, even though he's not here, I want to thank him. Your son is nineteen years old now. What do you want him to know about why you built this?

Nauman Jaffar (39:48)
Yeah, no, I actually that's a that's a very personal and touching question because

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (39:51)
But

Nauman Jaffar (39:53)
I I sometimes feel like I like I have a purpose in life, right? We all do a try to do everything for our kids, but you know, we come of age, at least I am, where I want to do where, you know, my other son and others can see can seal feel that I've done something for mo much more than just my son, right? So

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (40:15)
Yes, needs

Nauman Jaffar (40:18)
I I want him personally to to know that that I did not build this because he needed to be fixed. That's that's not the that's not the idea. He does not. I build it because the system should have worked harder to understand him instead of you know asking him and our family to work so hard to be understood. He he taught me that as a person,

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (40:22)
to be fixed and added last year as well.

Nauman Jaffar (40:39)
a person is always I guess larger than a diagnosis. A difficult day

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (40:44)
Mm-hmm.

Nauman Jaffar (40:45)
or a clinical note for that matter. I want

Nauman Jaffar (40:48)
I also want to respect that this is his story, not not just mine. he does not owe owe a company his privacy or a public role. What I owe him

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (40:50)
But how do we use the public and then I'll pay.

Nauman Jaffar (41:00)
is to use what I learned as his father to make the path more humane for other families who maybe cannot afford to come next, right? because I know it was difficult times for us

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (41:03)
Mm-hmm. That'd be more next week.

Nauman Jaffar (41:13)
and I was I was never trying to change.

Nauman Jaffar (41:17)
who my son is. Like even right now I love him the way he is. I was just I'm still

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (41:21)
Right.

Nauman Jaffar (41:22)
trying to change what the system is able to see in him.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (41:26)
You know, not when I got teary-eyed with you saying that. You said, I'm not trying to change my son. And so many people I think that you have empowered so many families because they are busy trying to change their children.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (41:44)
Yes. And what you've said is like I am standing with my son. Right. The way he is. The way he is. And making Yeah, the system needs to change to understand him. Right.

Nauman Jaffar (41:55)
Absolutely.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (41:56)
Yeah. So my gosh. so if your vision works, right. What does autism care look like in ten years?

Nauman Jaffar (42:09)
I guess some people are not going to like this this response, but I think there is a role for humanoids in this. there's already actually just yesterday I saw a big research come out of Yale University where a robot is trying and and they've been successful, humanoid robot, a small robot on a table is trying to fix the an autistic kid's

Nauman Jaffar (42:35)
you know glare like you know they they don't they don't make eye contact as an example social

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (42:36)
Yeah. It's social interaction, yeah.

Nauman Jaffar (42:40)
interaction right so so if you were to ask me in 10 years you know just like with driverless cars and autopilot and everything is changing right and and i know everything has a positive and have everything has a negative there will be a lot more other jobs that will come up in the market but in this space like my son

Nauman Jaffar (43:02)
needs twenty-four hours or twelve hours that he's awake or fourteen hours that he's awake of therapy. Right? And my biggest fear, quite honestly, who knows where I am in 10 years, right? Even if I'm not here, right? But he will continue, but it is not only him. It'll be all these other gen kids, one in thirty-one kids aged eight right now in US is autistic. It used to be one in eighty-eight when he was diagnosed in 2008. Right? So you get

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (43:09)
Mm-hmm. Right. Can you say can

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (43:31)
you s can you say that statistic again? One more time for all listeners.

Nauman Jaffar (43:33)
Yes. So

Nauman Jaffar (43:35)
one today in US, one in thirty-one kids aged eight is on the autism spectrum. So that's today to twenty twenty six. When my son was diagnosed back in two thousand eight, two thousand nine, I checked that statistics. Both in Canada and US it used to be one in eighty-eight kids. So that's yeah. So yeah, I mean we have better

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (43:57)
Yeah. Better

Nauman Jaffar (44:01)
DSM tools, we have better data collection, yeah, more awareness. Yes, that is also

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (44:02)
DSM, yeah. More awareness. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Nauman Jaffar (44:07)
but yeah, this this thing actually is definitely growing, right? And the system

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (44:10)
Think

Nauman Jaffar (44:12)
cannot cope with it unless we change how we're doing this.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (44:16)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (44:18)
Mm. Wow. Wow. Yeah. You know, now one of the things that we're trying to

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (44:27)
steal from another podcast is at the end we try to ask the guest a question that they want to give to the other the next guest and the question that was asked for for you was at the end of your your life here what would you want to be remembered for? What contribution to health care that you want to be remembered for?

Nauman Jaffar (44:55)
Yeah, I yeah, as you

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (44:56)
Ha ha.

Nauman Jaffar (44:57)
as you as I kind of started, right? I I'm I I I call myself a serial entrepreneur in healthcare and mental health and now in autism. and I want to be remembered, you know, for whatever God gave me, whether it's my intellect or the whatever it gave me, right? the position, the money, whatever it is, I my my priority till the day

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (45:21)
Right.

Nauman Jaffar (45:22)
I'm alive was basically to fix some sort of a healthcare problem. Like that gives me a lot of comfort. That's my faith that

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (45:30)
Mm-hmm.

Nauman Jaffar (45:31)
you know we are extremely all of us are very, very blessed and we all have challenges. Everybody has a challenge, right? And I am trying

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (45:35)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Nauman Jaffar (45:41)
and and you know the listeners, I'm sure they might not have this challenge or might they might have a similar challenge, but turn that

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (45:46)
Right now that's a good generation. Mm-hmm. But

Nauman Jaffar (45:49)
challenge into an opportunity.

Nauman Jaffar (45:52)
to help others. And that's where I am

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (45:53)
Mm.

Nauman Jaffar (45:56)
because I have other businesses that are doing great and

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (45:59)
Yeah.

Nauman Jaffar (45:59)
I'm using those fundings to invest this. Because I know there's

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (46:02)
Yeah.

Nauman Jaffar (46:03)
tons and tons of people who are doing software development as an example, right? So

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (46:06)
Mm-hmm.

Nauman Jaffar (46:08)
yeah, that's that's what I want to be remembered for, Dr. Evans. I don't if that answers your question.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (46:12)
That absolutely does. That's amazing. So what question you want to ask the next guest?

Nauman Jaffar (46:19)
Same thing. I think what what should be the legacy of the person that you're interviewing? What do you want them to be remembered for? I think that's a beautiful question.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (46:30)
Yes, it's a beautiful way. Norman, thank you for your contribution to health care. All right. That wraps

Nauman Jaffar (46:37)
Thank you.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (46:37)
up another episode of the Apex Health Podcast. We'd like to thank our guest Nailman for sharing his time, his expertise and insights with us today. Yes. And thank you for joining in on this conversation. If you found this episode valuable, please like.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (46:56)
subscribe and share it with someone who could benefit, especially families that are dealing with autism. Absolutely. Yes, it helps us continue bringing you meaningful conversations with the leaders shaping the future of healthcare. To learn more about today's guests or access any resources mentioned in this episode or connect with the Apex Health Team, visit the links in the episode description. Until next time, stay informed, stay empowered, and

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (47:25)
Take care. Thank you. All right. Bye.

Nauman Jaffar (47:27)
Thank you. Thank you guys. Thank you.

Alex Evans MD & Candice Caesar PMHNP (47:29)
Bye.

Nauman Jaffar (47:30)
Bye.